Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

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Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Zema Bus »

We may have dodged a bullet by going with 12th gen.
Owners of Intel’s latest 13th and 14th Gen Core i9 desktop processors have been noticing an increase in game crashes in recent months. It’s happening in games like The Finals, Fortnite, and Tekken 8, and has even led Epic Games to issue a support notice to encourage Intel Core i9 13900K and 14900K owners to adjust BIOS settings.

Now, Intel says it’s investigating the reports. “Intel is aware of problems that occur when executing certain tasks on 13th and 14th generation core processors for desktop PCs, and is analyzing them with major affiliates,” says an Intel spokesperson in a statement to ZDNet Korea.

The crashes vary in severity depending on the game, with some titles producing an “out of memory” error, others simply exiting out to the desktop, and some locking up a machine entirely. Most of the games affected seem to be based on the Unreal Engine, which could point to a stability issue that Intel needs to address.
The only workarounds that seem to improve stability involve manually downclocking or undervolting Intel’s processors. Epic Games has suggested changing the SVID behavior to Intel Fail Safe in the BIOS settings of Asus, Gigabyte, or MSI motherboards. Custom PC builders Power GPU recommend reducing the performance core ratio limit, which seems to help with stability in certain games.

Intel’s investigation comes just days after PCWorld had to swap out a Core i9 13900K processor to stop Fortnite from crashing on a writer’s PC. I’ve personally experienced game crashes on a 14900K system, and reducing the performance core ratio limit improved things on my own system. Intel has only confirmed an investigation so far, and it’s still not clear what the root cause of these game crashes is.
From theverge.com
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Fuck, I am indeed glad to not be chasing my tail over that. Unreal Engine sure is a piece of shit though. DA had CPU problems with that game (Borderlands 3/Unreal 4) and had to set affinity to not use all his AMD cores.

P.S. Also, it was Unreal 4 and 5 (in DX12 mode) that were hitting that occlusion query disordering problem for me on my old rig. No other games, directx 12 or otherwise. That POS engine caused work for me and I was lucky I was able to keep re-basing my patch. Time spent testing too when I could have just as easily not, and kept my shader caches etc.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Zema Bus »

JayzTwoCents did a video on this topic:

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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

See, Jay cares about optimizing for temperature over performance. He's admitting his CPU isn't doing as much work with his settings, with lower cinebench scores. That doesn't matter to him (and likely his audience) because it's not a realistic load. Cranking up the limits doesn't make their games and applications run faster. However, it is precisely a realistic load for me!

I want my builds to complete faster and if a core spikes to 100C and gets briefly throttled, I'm still getting as much work done as the CPU can possibly do. I'm stable, I'd be corrupting data doing sustained builds at -j24 (in fact I was when my bios configuration got invisibly messed up and needed defaults reloaded). If the cores aren't maxed out, then they aren't running at max frequency (e.g. idling at 800 MHz and 25C) so it only comes into play when I am compiling. As I discovered after watching his first video about this stuff, my board did have very aggressive wattage limit settings, governed by that "cooler type" setting which defaults to "liquid cooling" and insane, practically non-existent limits. However, even with that enabled until someone clicks the overclock profile button it wouldn't really do any harm.

This is in general with his videos decrying motherboard settings, not specific to mitigating that game crashing issue (which this may mitigate, but not actually solve as it happens with stock settings on some of those CPUs).
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Zema Bus »

Steve from Gamers Nexus and Wendel from Level1Techs have an interesting discussion about this problem. It's also affecting game servers running server boards so it's not due to over clocking or aggressive stock motherboard settings.




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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Heheh...

Wendell: "Nope, not so fast there, Chuckles, that's actually a CPU problem"
Steve: "Yeah... Chuckles!" as he looks at the camera with some mocking, brow beating at Intel fanboys :lol:
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Here's another follow up to this, Steve has decided to partially spill the beans about what he knows (possible deposition issue during manufacturing, causing oxidation and upping resistance on the problematic CPUs)


Lead claims: Intel has an issue in its fabrication process where its anti-oxidation coating was improperly applied, leading to oxidized vias
Lead claims: Intel is working on a microcode revision to roll-out ASAP. The microcode will reduce the processor frequency. This does not fix the root cause, but works around the issue
Unverified claims (they need to send samples to failure testing labs to verify this). Intel better do more than that, nobody wants those kinds of fixes.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Zema Bus »

Yeah just a band-aide fix, worse than that really. I'll watch that tomorrow. I think the last time they had this big of a screw up was with the Pentium 4, and to get out of that corner they went back to the Pentium 3 as a starting point to move forward.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

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I have an i9 (12900KS) on an Asus Z790 mobo, with a Radeon RX7800 XT. I really know how to make bad decisions. Even this 12th gen Intel is shaky as hell. I'm sure the Asus(pect) mobo doesn't help! I'm really not a gamer much. I'm a Second Life (3D virtual world) user. Second Life uses Havok, and on a busy sim can run like a slideshow even on a high end computer, because the content is user created, and not optimized. If I can't even run Second Life without constant crashes and lockups on the i9, I have little faith that a mainstream game would work. After yet another hard crash on the i9 today, I put the same graphics card in my MSI B550 mobo with an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X that I still have kicking around. No crashes since. If this proves to be stable, I'm going to just go all AMD, and get something like the Ryzen 7 7800X3D.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

The 12th gen shouldn't be the same problem. Every product can have a bad one, but I have a similar CPU. Yours clocks a few hundred MHz higher I think.

I'm stable with turbo boost frequencies maxed out. I compile a lot of shit, with all cores maxed. I'll hit 100C for brief spikes on a core that will get throttled for a sec (I just have an air tower cooler) but that's of no consequence. I would be corrupting data with random failures or miscompiled software, if there was any sort of problem. I also play pretty fat games. (I have RX 7700 XT, Gigabyte card because my first Assrock card failed in 31 days)

Also though, I'm on a Z690 chipset, with DDR4 RAM (due to cheapness of Corsair 3200 MHz sticks at the time). I have a somewhat silly MSI board with some foolish behaviour, but hardware wise it's stable.

It could be the game itself that is finicky. There are options you could try, you can start the game and then grab task manager and stick it to, say, the first 8 cores using "Affinity" (i.e. the p-enis cores not the e-ffeminite ones)

You might also consider more conservative motherboard settings if what you have is bollocks for the intended purpose. You may not actually have a hardware problem at all, download some benchmark programs or something if you don't have other games to test.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

I've been doing a little searching about this game... have you considered trying a different client? I see praise for this:

https://www.firestormviewer.org/

(Note that I don't know anything about this, just that it may be less of a shit sandwich for you)
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by TheeRadioDJ »

I did wonder if it's just crappy software, and not a hardware issue. I have the "enforce limits" setting enabled, so nothing is overclocked. I'm actually already using the Firestorm viewer for that game. :lol:

What benchmarking programs are best for really testing for stability?
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

I wasn't think of anything specific, more just something that's like a video game.

Here's a modern one
https://benchmark.unigine.com/superposition

Another
https://benchmark.unigine.com/valley

OpenGL/Vulkan
https://geeks3d.com/furmark/
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

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I just tried that FurMark on Linux, as I'd not seen that one before. I'm getting about the same, around 200 FPS for both the OpenGL and Vulkan tests (full screen 1920x1080 with OSD HUDs showing). Slightly better with Vulkan

Code: Select all

[grogan@nicetry FurMark_linux64]$ ./FurMark_GUI
[ Demo Quick Stats ]
- demo                 : FurMark (GL) (built-in: YES)
- renderer             : AMD Radeon RX 7700 XT (radeonsi, navi32, ACO, DRM 3.57, 6.10.1)
- 3D API               : OpenGL 4.6 (Compatibility Profile) Mesa 24.3.0-devel (git-e16a74c023)
- resolution           : 1920x1080
- SCORE                : 11680
- duration             : 60002 ms
- FPS (min/avg/max)    : 190 / 195 / 204

[ Demo Quick Stats ]
- demo                 : FurMark (VK) (built-in: YES)
- renderer             : AMD Radeon RX 7700 XT (RADV NAVI32)
- 3D API               : Vulkan 1.3.289
- resolution           : 1920x1080
- SCORE                : 11953
- duration             : 60004 ms
- FPS (min/avg/max)    : 194 / 199 / 204
I'd say try that for opengl and vulkan but also try the Unigine tests (especially superposition), they are more like a video game than this.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by TheeRadioDJ »

I quite like the superposition one, with all of the interesting lab and test equipment imagery.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Yeah, it's a nice one and representative of the rendering in a lot of games. I only have an OpenGL rendering choice for those Unigine benchmarks on Linux, though.

uniginesuperpositionopengl.jpg
uniginesuperpositionopengl.jpg (174.38 KiB) Viewed 157240 times
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by TheeRadioDJ »

I've run all of those, and even did a run with CPU Burner running at the same time. No crashes, stuttering, or any problems at all on the Intel system.

On the Firestorm Second Life viewer:

Intel i9 12900KS
Asus Z790 Mobo
XFX Radeon RX7800 XT
16 GB DDR 5
Frequently crashes/locks up/black screens within a minute. Error message sometimes says unable to allocate memory or something along those lines.

AMD Ryzen 9 3900X
MSI B550 Mobo
XFX Radeon RX7800 XT
16 GB DDR 4
No frequent crashes/lock ups/black screens as on the Intel platform.

Both systems are air cooled. Same graphics card, just swapped from one system to the other. Both have the same version of Windows, same AMD graphics driver, and the same version of the Firestorm Second Life viewer. As I mentioned before, I don't have anything overclocked. I'm really at a loss as to what's going on.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

As suspected, you don't have a hardware problem, you have a game that's barfing on your CPU topology. There's a good chance restricting the cores to the 8 p-cores with Affinity settings will make the game playable.

How you do this depends on whether or not the game can tolerate being broken out of to get task manager up. The easiest way in Windows is to right click on the running game process in task manager and choose Affinity and check boxes for the cores. Try it like that first if you can.

If that helps, the other way is to launch it with cmd.exe/start.exe with the /affinity switch in a batch file (this won't work in a normal desktop shortcut unless run through cmd.exe), but it's a hexadecimal bitmask that has to be added.

Code: Select all

start /affinity 0x00000000000001FF "c:\path to\stupid fucking\game program.exe"
(I hope quotes work for spaces... should, it's not actually "DOS")

In a shortcut:

Code: Select all

c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe /C start /affinity 0x00000000000001FF "c:\path to\stupid fucking\game program.exe"
I say stupid fucking game because it pisses me off that we have to do things like this. I have a few games I have to do that for on my new rig (we have taskset on Linux, as well as a variable for Wine that works similarly). My Deadspace 2 game for one example. High on Life is another that has problems on the new rig.

Here's a calculator:
https://bitsum.com/tools/cpu-affinity-calculator/

That mask in my commands was calculated there, by checking cores 0 through 8. Experiment with those if that doesn't work, for we really don't know which cores are which.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by TheeRadioDJ »

I went into task manager and enabled only cores 0-7 for Firestorm. I still had a lovely lockup and black screen. I went on the assumption that 0-7 were P-cores, and 8-17 were E-cores. Maybe not. I may just wipe this system and install Linux. There is a Linux version of Firestorm.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Or don't wipe, but grab a SATA SSD to test with, or something. I'm sure you've got unused SATA connections.

The nice thing about Linux is you can (probably) run the Windows client or the Linux native one (preferable of course if it works) :-)

But no, you can't assume you've got the right cores. (Or if that will even help, for that matter). Try 4 of them for a test.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

I didn't watch any more videos on this, but Steve's investigation was right about the oxidation problem in the manufacturing process on some of the specimens. I'll just summarize what I know.

There is also a microcode problem Intel is correcting, where voltages were too high. Intel claims this problem supersedes the oxidation issue in the number of failures, but... of course they'd say that.

As a remedy Intel is increasing the warranty for an extra 2 years, for 13th and 14th gen processors.
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

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Louis Rossmann did a video about it this week:

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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

Ahh Louis Rossman on this, it ought to be good. I'll watch it after I get my XFCE sorted.

In the mean time, I hope he's having a lovely day :-)

(I love how he always starts his rants off with that)
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Re: Intel 13th & 14th Gen Game Instability

Post by Grogan »

So this one was more about the financial aspects of it, and how it's going to harm innovation if Intel gets too badly hurt.

Intel is a huge company, they might have a down turn but they aren't going away.
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